S1 Ep#1 - Conversational AI with Grant Ronald from tech giant Oracle

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Hello, welcome to conversations worth millions. The podcasts are all about the business of conversational AI. We talked with leading experts in voice chat, messaging and emergent technology, about the strategies and practical applications for business. In this episode, we chat with grant Ronald, who is the Director of Product Management for conversational AI and digital assistance at Oracle. It's a wide ranging chat where we talk about automation and Coronavirus, the direction of travel for Oracle with voice and chat and grants top tips on conversation design.

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I hope you enjoy

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today's podcast we've got

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fascinating guests. The man none other than grant Ronald from Oracle. Grant is expert in in conversational AI and works for one of the big boys. Grant Hello and welcome.

Unknown Speaker : 0:53

Thanks right yeah, so grant Ronald here I work at Oracle which the computer No for for databases and you know business applications like expenses in HR and all those less than exciting things but we also do all bunch of exciting things around bots and conversational AI and so my I work as part of the Development Organisation and product management that is responsible for technically getting all our customers internal and external to Oracle M. up and running and building hopefully really successful chatbots

Unknown Speaker : 1:30

sounds good. One question that always fascinates me within the conversational space is How the hell did you get into it? What was your path into conversational AI?

Unknown Speaker : 1:42

accidental, although I suppose I in some ways, wanted to guide myself into there I've always worked started off as most in this industry as a developer and then evolved into working through a support organisation into development, Product Management, but always focused on Oracle's tools. So was in some of our traditional database tools, then we evolved to things like Java and more bile. And then the next evolution came along is is chatbots. And so it kind of chose me Robin I chose it although I've always had a, you know, kind of fascination and language and the wonderful complexities in search of language. So that was about five years ago. So I embraced with with both hands that we could, that I could take my tools development experiences, and bring those into the conversational channel as well. So

Unknown Speaker : 2:34

yeah, there doesn't seem to be any particular part into into conversation from I've seen, like you said, there's, whether it's business or marketing or development, it seems to be a wide ranging group of people who have kind of Yes, got into this space, I would say,

Unknown Speaker : 2:49

absolutely. I mean, I, you know, if I think the profile of the people I'm working for I'm working with because there's someone who's gonna integrate with the back end. So there's kind of, you know, integration developer type, special Is the array up to the those who are, you know, literally people who have come from cinema script trading, and all stops in between. So it's really great because you get to, you know, meet a whole, it's not just a techie thing. There's a whole bunch of skills involved in it. So yeah, it is a mix many people to successful chatbot.

Unknown Speaker : 3:20

So tell us a bit more about Oracle then. So, obviously, you know, for listeners, well, we all know that, you know, conversational AI. You think about Amazon, and you think about Microsoft and Google and so on. What's the Oracle offering? What is it? What does it do?

Unknown Speaker : 3:35

So we have a platform Oracle digital assistant, which is our platform for building conversational interfaces, and, and we've had this as a platform, you know, technology service for about four or five years. But what's been really interesting in Oracle and there's been a couple of articles on social media in the last couple of months or so. A boat Two and a half years ago, Larry Ellison, more founder of Oracle, really, you know, kind of pitched up that that the apps in Oracle's big on the app side of things, we're going to embrace conversational interfaces. And and so probably one of our biggest drivers as well as the fact that that our apps teams are kind of know looking to use conversational interfaces is one of their, on fact and are talking about one of their primary channels of engagement because, you know, and I think it's really irrelevant in the the world we're in at the moment with the Coronavirus crisis is that, you know, people are looking to access information in different ways, you know, how can I access my HR systems and things like this and know we're giving them another options that this can be done conversationally as well. I mean, why should I go to a website to book a vacation? Why can't I just say book next week. off in the industry. So, yeah, that's where we're kind of focusing in Oracle, both on the platform, but almost also pro naps as well.

Unknown Speaker : 5:09

Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I've got asked the question, obviously, in the current pandemic, so how is that changed? I mean, it must, you know, automation, one would imagine is is, you know, kind of front and centre and a lot of different business applications. So, are you from a business perspective? And from a tech side? Have you seen a lot more of that over the last month or two?

Unknown Speaker : 5:29

absolutely huge. It's been one of the primary offerings around where chatbots generally work really well as this whole kind of call centre scenario, got a call centre, a couple of thousand people, whatever it might be. And sometimes those people are dealing with the low fidelity calls, you know that the basic stuff and we've all acknowledged that. Conversation assistants are really good for maybe taking some of that load. No, we know whether the situation in the past couple Weeks is that there's a huge amount of people trying to get information from for this parcel firms or your HR department and how you work from home or the health service of the government. And yet, on the flip side, those establishments are have, you know, half of the staff are on sec are isolating. And so they're seeing this huge spike of demand for people trying to get information but less people to serve, Sarah and it quite obviously seems that we can put some sort of automated assistant in place because again, you know, not everybody is very familiar with accessing or navigating through websites, but if we can give them a channel in which they simply see what you want, and we will try and respond to that and the best way we can, is obviously a pretty valuable offering right now. Right

Unknown Speaker : 6:57

And do you think, do you think this is a spike, obviously has been around for a little while now three or four years in kind of popularity in its current form. Do you see that being a spike with what's happening currently? Do you think that's going to change people's working from home automation? What what how do you see it moving forward? I, you know, I,

Unknown Speaker : 7:16

I don't think any of us can really imagine what this new normal is going to is going to be. But yes, I can see that. For many of us, we will be spending more time working from home those kind of things as well. So how we access information systems may well change, I think this could well play a part in it.

Unknown Speaker : 7:36

So what's the big sector for Oracle in terms of enterprise? Is it around the HCM and HR function? Or is it sector specific in terms of education or health or so?

Unknown Speaker : 7:46

I mean, Oracle's got these software offerings everywhere. I mean, for us right at this pivotal moment, the big area on the conversation is conversational channels is our HCM offering at The moment but there are many others within Oracle, who are also building these conversational channels as well. But probably Yeah, probably HCM e RP are probably two big players right at this moment. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker : 8:13

So it's a question that we get asked a lot as well. That's a tough one. I'm gonna ask it anyway, ROI, how do you calculate the business benefit of conversational AI?

Unknown Speaker : 8:22

That say yeah, okay, so ultimately, that's why we're doing this stuff because there's got to be a good reason for it and not return investments probably the most important thing and one of this the examples I give is, you know, we have got a customer in particular who has a call centre. Now if you calculate roughly what the cost of a call centre interaction is, I mean, call it $5 $10, whatever it is something around that and the scale that these guys are working out, no, not to take anything away from your call centre staff, but a lot of people are maybe just asking those basic questions. Where's my purse? Or what times your shop opened? Or what's your returns policy? And if we can somehow, you know, take the Lord with a digital assistant away from those questions and let the call centre staff focus on the more complex issues, the ones that they can add more value in the ones they probably enjoy doing more than each one of those 510 dollar calls becomes, you know, the digital systems dealing dealing with that. And the and this isn't just about me, this isn't about trying to cut your call centre staff but also think about the spikes that you have again, we'll go back to the situation today but equally there are business spikes that you know, end of quarters there are there are your commercial spikes in customer interactions with Christmas or Black Friday or, and in fact, I think but believe the couple of weeks after Christmas is one of the most busy for parcel firms because people are returning items. They want to know how to return things and the return policy. So I think that's one of the most tangible things you see on the call centre side is the simple cost of a call. And each one that you can take with a digital assistant is a pretty hard and fast, you know, dollar value to that.

Unknown Speaker : 10:13

In terms of a typical project, you know, how long does it take to spin up a conversational AI system?

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The How long is a piece of string I guess?

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operations?

Unknown Speaker : 10:24

Well, you know, it's it's a good question because we have, literally and we were doing some of this for some customers in the past couple of weeks, again, given the Coronavirus thing that we were spinning up some pretty robust but demo systems in you know, a day or so a couple of days. I always say to people that you can you start off small, get an idea you know, pick your best use case, the one that's got the good return on investment, you don't have to, to have a digital assistant does everything that you're doing A company can support just pick one use case was a good value. And and if it can handle that, and you can get return on investment then then start there. So it can be literally a couple of weeks. And for example, with digital assistance, one of the the quickest, but most valuable use cases is the the FAQs. You know, you're trying to find that stuff on the corporate website, or you don't use the right words. But if you could have somehow an assistant that could answer those and that's a quick turnaround and there's not a huge amount of effort. It's not typical. It's not like a back end integration. You can just bring your FAQ into the bot train it to understand those things. And that's pretty much it. So you can be a couple of weeks. No, there's there's one element of which I think is hugely important with chat bots. And that's, you know, the the conversational design. So, if you're getting in much more into a back and forth conversation between the user and the digital assistant, then Cause you have to think about how you craft that. And that takes time. So But yeah, I mean, these things we can we can do pretty much in a couple of weeks. Although they tend to be ongoing projects, like a, like an employee that you have in your your company, your chat bot needs training, and reach, nurturing and need to review process to keep on top of how it's performing. And that can also be an ongoing thing. But there's certainly no reason you can't be getting returns in the first couple of weeks anyway. That's good to know.

Unknown Speaker : 12:28

It's also one of the common mistakes for businesses who haven't dip their toe into conversational AI, or they go too complex. Are they expecting too much? Because, you know, we've there's been so high expectations of conversation chat and voice and I think off sometimes it the reality doesn't actually match what's expected. And you have that high bar and then people don't use them again, you seeing that?

Unknown Speaker : 12:49

Yes, I think I think you're right. I mean, we we look at some of the press that you know, robots taking over the world and stuff and you know, we can a smile wry smile because Yes the expectations are maybe beyond what we deliver. So I think if we take a little bit of time it it educating, tempering people's enthusiasm and what they can do with with digital assistant that's usually quite a time well spent. But it's funny I think the biggest problems we have other non technical problems, I think I think the challenges in bought development are people don't know what conversational designers they don't think of it conversational design they don't think is important. It's all about when it integrate with the system, what's the what's their, their the REST services, how to build this and stuff, we're simply thinking about the tone of voice your bot can be the the thing, which is the, you know, the gating factor in terms of success. So I think a lot of the things that I talk to customers about is what I suppose would, maybe term is softer elements, conversational design, personality, and, you know, kind of intent training, you know what, what kind of intent you and use cases use, you're going to cover as well, quite often you see people trying to do too much, keep it small, get a good return on investment, and understand where you're taking it from there. And also project things about buy in for the long term, that you're going to have to take a little bit of a risk that you put your bot out there. And it might not perform anywhere near as well as you think. But you've got to be willing to put the effort in to retrain and work on that and not just say, this isn't working, pull the plug. So yeah, there's a couple of three or four things there. It tends to be the softer elements to projects, rather than the pure technical elements I find are the the problems.

Unknown Speaker : 14:45

Yeah, I find that fascinating is how I see it. It's almost like a new UI, isn't it? And people need to be trained to it. But the question I've got is, where do you start though, so I get that a botnet, you know, assistance and voice and chat and elements need to be CATIA, almost human base, but we don't go too far, I guess. So how do you Where does it start? Where to get the data from? Where does it start the process?

Unknown Speaker : 15:09

You know, we have an Oracle, we've been to this thing called CDs compensation or design experience workshop. And what we do and it's kind of good, this role playing thing where we get people together, and we talk about, well, what do you want from the channel? What's your pin points currently? And, you know, what might a conversational channel do to address that? And then we talk about, well in the conversation or channel, what might a conversation look like? And how might that conversation evolve? And then we get into personality? how might that bot respond? When you get something wrong is the bot, you know, what's the personality of the bot is it literally don't the point of is the bot personality, male, female, young, old because you've got to kind of put yourself into the bot personality when you think about responses. So We can try to get people on to that. So they've got a good idea of what we're aiming for, before we actually open the product up and start building something. So I think it's those those kind of good points that we try to offer to people about getting started.

Unknown Speaker : 16:18

Interesting. Where do you sit on the on the question of how human a bot should be? Should you be? Are we trying to fool people here? Should they know straight away it's automated system they're talking to?

Unknown Speaker : 16:29

Yeah, I saw there's that there's a word that I try to get my mouth thrown when I speak anthropomorphism. I believe. That is where it's the the, the concept of putting human like emotions or characteristics but not necessarily trying to be human. And I think that's what we're aiming for. You know, some of the bots I've seen there, they have been hugely successful, they have embraced a human like qualities. But they don't try to pass it off as human. So little elements of humour, little elements of of warmth. And I suppose those positive human elements, we're not trying to impart sarcasm and irony and these kind of things that might not be the best things, but you know, those human like qualities. And, and again, there's there's more obvious things like I mean, a classic example I often talk about is anyone building an IT system? You know, you might have an error message that says, invalid order ID. Now, in a conversation between you and me, Roy in order, you know, if I gave you my phone number and didn't work, you wouldn't say, invalid phone number. Say, Hey, Grant, I got that phone number doesn't seem to be working. And that's, that's a conversational way. That's a kind of human conversation. So I think it's taking on elements of human behaviour, but certainly not trying to fool anyone. In fact, I think you'll Find in some countries or states that you have to declare that you're speaking to an automated system anyway. Right? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker : 18:08

of course that is interesting. So one of the biggest challenges and so if a business wants to wants to, you know, get started on this, what what's the biggest banana skin they need to avoid?

Unknown Speaker : 18:19

think two things to say the first thing is, a lot of this is new. And there's a lot of new skills. Don't think people aren't necessarily aware of what skills that they need. So that's, that's one element. That's something we try to do a lot of educating people on is, is and coming to the second point about things like conversational design, you know, did you realise you had to think about a personality for this bot? So I think I rolling those two things together. In summarising I think the main issue I find in terms of successes, is people can build bots today, when they Technical build bots. But there's not many people building great bots. And the reason they are building great bots tends to be because it's very new for them so they haven't really kind of got their their war stories yet in terms of those scars from from previous engagements and and that second element about not thinking that oh, I did have to think about bot personality as a phrase I've used that some bots have reviewed where it sounds like I'm speaking to a Victorian grandfather, very stiff and formal and like, Oh my God, that's that's just not a good experience. Where there was one I was actually testing to do one that my team is building and one of them put in a really subtle joke and it made me smile with the response that the bot gave me in it and I felt good. So those are those elements I think that that you know, success factors, but we've got to educate people on on that those are important things.

Unknown Speaker : 19:59

I love that The Victorian grandfather analogy is fantastic. Look out for that the next bar test. Because some people might want that, right, but it's not right for every use case on that, I'd imagine.

Unknown Speaker : 20:09

Yeah, well, in fact, there's this book that we're working on in internally at the moment. And we've actually chosen a robot personality for a whole number of reasons. So we've kind of in some ways, you know, deliberately picked a personality that is sometimes the wordings a little stilted. Sometimes the phraseology is not quite not on par or should be or sometimes the use of idioms is actually been done incorrectly it but we've deliberately done that to give a personality to this this bought but yeah, yeah, I say unless you want a Victorian grandfather, digital assistant, kind of avoid that.

Unknown Speaker : 20:54

I think that's a that's a

Unknown Speaker : 20:56

separate conversation. opportunity to have but that's for another another time. discoverability right this is a question that keeps on coming up for me. Now of course if you've got things like web chat obviously you've got an assistant on the website and that's discovered there are things like voice and and messenger and slack and all these things. How do people discover bots?

Unknown Speaker : 21:16

Discover the bots themselves. Indeed, yeah.

Unknown Speaker : 21:19

Yeah. Are they being used? I guess is the question How would you know if for a business case, if you were putting that to it to to a business or a client How do they find them?

Unknown Speaker : 21:29

What we've found is again, we got a slightly different I suppose view the world here Noriko because we're doing a lot of stuff on on kind of, you know, enterprise systems. So where you would go to your, your corporate landing page for for your HR department. Know you have that, that bought sitting there as a as an icon on the on those those pages. So that's kind of one of the main places that we see people kind of accessing boss from those corporate lines. Pages already have, or, and one of the things we're trying to do with with Oracle's digital assistant is, so you don't have to go and find your HR bot and your expenses board and your laptop ordering. But the idea is we can bring everything under one box. So you have your company bought, which could sit right in front and centre in your your company's portal or something. And it tries to work out if you've asked this question, well, I'll put that off to the, the the HR skill behind the scenes, so we try to bring it under one single. So that whole discoverability thing is no just one place that you have to go.

Unknown Speaker : 22:41

Right. So what God what is the killer bot? What's the killer application out there? And, you know, we've been through the mobile kind of decades, you know, AI has been been touted as as you know the the thing of the 20s you know as the future is where it's going and is there a killer bot application voice or chat

Unknown Speaker : 23:00

You know,

Unknown Speaker : 23:02

I probably think we have a lot of our demos and stuff. We're doing pizza bots and things that I don't really. I mean, I think it makes a great demo I'm not quite convinced that the necessarily that the killer thing I think the point that one of the most important areas in terms of a killer feature is that whole dealing with enterprise scale that gone back to the call centre thing you know, I need to get information and if you're making me Wait 20 minutes on a queue to speak to somebody who let's face it is going to turn around and tape into a system and connect to the same back end that you could from a conversational AI and then why can't we cut that 20 minutes waiting to speak to somebody and just ask for the information in the so much of that know whether it's, you know, booking an appointment or your engineer coming out to check your broadband or deliveries, checking deliveries, wherever it might be. Those kind of human interactions will continue. And I come back to this, you know, example is Wouldn't it be great if you had a an assistant that you could just turn around and ask questions to and that suppose we were trying to get to where you would just turn into a trusted person and say, can you book some vacation for me? Or can you get on your laptop? Or can you submit my expenses that I did last week, whatever it might be, that that becomes that little icon on your desktop or your phone that you can just speak to and get all that done. So think anything that you are trying to do a cell service that we can lower that barrier cell service and, and let the digital assistant you know, ease that easy through that process. And I think that's, I think that's where the real value I see more than the pizza ordering thing.

Unknown Speaker : 24:48

I love pizza.

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I spend a lot of my time typing in large pepperoni pizza.

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That should be my new password. I can take it so fast.

Unknown Speaker : 24:58

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker : 24:59

So grab one would be your top two tips for conversation design.

Unknown Speaker : 25:04

I think probably the first thing is really think about personality, you know, and personality encompasses a number of things, how you deal with errors, how you welcome people, all those kind of things you really think about the personality of Bob, because you don't have branding. You don't have colours, fonts, anything else. all you've got is the tone of voice that you're choosing. So I think that's really important. The second thing, I think, super important, one of the first things I always test when someone says, Can you check out or bought his small talk? I'll say, Hi, I'll see are you bought? Are you real? Where'd you live? And I'm not necessarily trying to break it. What I'm trying to do is it's small talks actually got a purpose. It's a way of people finding out what you can do, which is kind of like what we do as humans as well. You know, you can admit small talk and know where you're from, and what's going on. Go to etc. And we're trying to find commonality. So if we can intelligently respond to questions like, are you a bot? And in fact, you've helped something you've answered the question rather than saying, I'm sorry, I didn't understand. Please rephrase that question. And in fact, my my, my bank recently launched the buttons, the first thing I did, and it was disappointed me because I thought, that's, that's an that's a law. That's an easy fix, to simply deal with the small talk and in fact, with your digital assistant, one of the things I've done in Oracle is I created a skill. Other people have done it as well, but I created a skill that handled about 15 or 20 of these classes of questions ranging from the the asking for help, are your ball flirting, swearing, asking but the weather people do these things? And the point being is you bought whilst not Answering a question in terms of the use case, HR or expenses, it is answering and being intelligent. And that's important. So I find the small talk thing, really important, but that along with personnel to the to, I suppose gates a gift to people, as you know, think think of it those upfront those those are actually important, although they might not seem. They're not the technical things that are underpinning it. They're just important to conversation.

Unknown Speaker : 27:26

Yeah, I guess the devils in the detail. So Graham, we've talked a lot about bots and assistance in terms of chat, where where do you sit on the voice question? Do you consider voice and chat to be part of conversational AI? Are they are they separate?

Unknown Speaker : 27:41

Now? I think they're pretty much you know, different parts of the same same solution. And again, you know, we, we've touched on today, you know, the current crisis that we're in globally, this pandemic, and we've certainly seen a lot of requests about voice because They don't want people to touch things there are certain situations and in hospitals or even we might be in a situation ordering food for whatever it might be in which voice suddenly becomes a pretty important factor. So what's interesting is I think they're they're a slightly different conversation or design elements you would you would have to undertake for example, you're not going to say, Can you repeat that please on a tape channel like you know, WhatsApp, but on on a voice channel, you know, having an intent to understand Can you repeat that again, please, or whatever it might be, and is kind of important but no, I think I think certainly voices is going to become super important and I don't know you know, you or anyone listening I've got a six and a year, eight year old nephew, they've they've grown up with Amazon Alexa. And you don't know they're homeschooling at the moment that they just ask questions about fractions and their geography and history and all the other things are doing They have grown up speaking to devices. So I think the voice element is pretty important. And the final and the other end of the spectrum, my father who's 85 we got an Amazon Alexa and it's the first time he'd ever listened to different radio stations because he had a dap digital radio but wouldn't change it the station because he wasn't sure he get back to the station he was on no voice takes that away from he just says listen to BBC Radio to listen to five live listen to and it does it there's no pressing buttons or anything to get wrong. So I think there's some some really nice, you know, changes coming in with voice and I think a lot of people are embracing that as, as that kind of preferred channel.

Unknown Speaker : 29:46

I was about to two kids and often their walk into rooms these days and saying Alexa about thinking about it. It's becoming a real part of their life really, very quickly. That's happened as well, I think.

Unknown Speaker : 29:56

Yeah, we've even I mean, we try to have dinner with the Kids at night and we have an Alexa in the dining room. And Alexa comes part of the conversation sometimes we're talking about something and we'll ask a question or your how far away is the sun? Or? Or what's the speed of light some something will come up and Alexa can answer those questions. Although the don't say this is the kids sometimes control the music that's happening over dinner.

Unknown Speaker : 30:24

Which we need to get the voice recognition in place. So they don't stop that but yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker : 30:29

So gone. What is what's on the roadmap for Oracle for digital assistant over the next 12 months? What what's the direction of travel?

Unknown Speaker : 30:36

Well, you know, I think that the there's big changes coming around on things. So this is stuff that's already kind of slight in public domain, but there's, there's more and more we're doing around this voice. For example, we talked about voice and that that's kind of important for Oracle because obviously we have already voice assistants like Alexa that we're talking about, but for the enterprise use case that Oracle sits in a lot of the time you You know, that information needs to stay within a single vendor and and and so having your own voice The other element of Oracle having its own voice capabilities is also the fact that there's a lot of domain specific terminology which doesn't necessarily apply in the more kind of generalised domain that Alexa works in. So, you know, example could use as in require key account director is known as a CAD. No, you know, CAD to Alexa is going to mean something very different euro, Euro rather dubious fellow or it could be a Canadian dollars. And so we can train it with its own terms specific to that domain as well. So voice a big area, you know, that opening up to new channels is another area and and of course, that the language models are evolving, to be more and more robust about understanding the meanings and you even play about some of the changes in the more our most recent versions, it's quite phenomenal how well we're understanding domain terms that even the bots not specifically been trained with, because it's understanding more generalised knowledge of English language. So there's a lot of cool stuff happening there, as well and an Oracle as well, as I said, delivering pre packaged skills. So it's not just a platform, we're also providing those pre packaged skills for HCM and expenses and various other things that that's quite attractive again, in this enterprise space for Oracle.

Unknown Speaker : 32:37

Sounds like you can be pretty busy.

Unknown Speaker : 32:38

All Yes, we're certainly not sure of opportunities and things to be doing. It's exciting time. You know, it's so fast moving. And there's so many things happening. As I said, we talked at the beginning, ranging from the technical elements, but also those softer conversational things that we're helping people with is the resurrection. In time, in all my years, it's been the most, I guess, exciting area that I've I've worked on.

Unknown Speaker : 33:06

Right. So where do you get inspiration from grant? What what sort of blogs or books? Would you recommend people and have a look at it for getting into this sort of space?

Unknown Speaker : 33:16

Well, you know, something that the one year with the iPhone incredibly interesting is I've got connected with a bunch of kind of like minded fellows on LinkedIn. And there's a lot of great people who are talking about you know, there's meetups. There's a lot of podcasts, obviously no at the moment and webinars and these kind of things meetups online. And I found a wealth of inspiration from these people because they're sharing the day to day experiences of, of things they've been building, you know, and lovely bite sized chunks and to say, because it's such a community, we're getting different ideas and thoughts and debates going on as well. So I've actually, you know, it's maybe Not more than more traditional use of LinkedIn, but iPhone, just talking and engaging with a lot of like minded people in the conversational AI side of things. It's been really useful. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker : 34:10

yeah. Similar. I'll put some in the show notes. Actually, there's a there's a couple of groups that I found as well. Yeah. Yeah. useful. Okay. Great. Last question. How do you create a conversation worth millions?

Unknown Speaker : 34:23

Oh, I think if I had nailed that I might not be having a podcast with you somewhere. You know, it's a, it's a very good question. And I could come up with some sort of clever answer something. But, you know, I think there are there are, we don't have to make the million dollar deal or the million dollar use case. I think there are just lots of use cases which will add huge amount of value to businesses, but will also help people's lives as well just so I think it might be through the scale of this rather than any sort of, you know, a meeting Innovation or single bought or anything that we build.

Unknown Speaker : 35:05

Great grant. That's been absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much for taking part. I'm sure that listeners will find it really interesting and fascinating hearing from someone with your expertise. Thanks for being so open.

Unknown Speaker : 35:16

been brilliant. Thanks for having me. I've been I've enjoyed it. And I look forward to listening to other podcasts, people in these podcasts as well. So thanks.

Unknown Speaker : 35:26

It's great. Thanks.

Unknown Speaker : 35:28

Thanks for listening. This has been the conversations worth millions podcast from synthetic agency. For more information about conversational AI design, emerging technology, head over to synthetic agency.com